Comments on Hareega: Is Jordan Really Persecuting Christians?

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING!! It's like, ...

2008-06-10T22:31:00.000+11:00

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING!!
It's like, government deport people, give a small press release,,,and loads of things in the backstage, unknown,,, and keep guessing these things..

There is alot of more useful things to do..

3ala golet REM, Loosing my religion

'One of the visiting professors to JETS is Dr. Ton...

2008-02-29T06:54:00.000+11:00

'One of the visiting professors to JETS is Dr. Tony Maalouf, author of "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel".'

Pity the security deported him too... Shooting their own feet. Its in Jordan that I learned to understand some of the Palestinian issues. I have taken whole teams of "Zionist Evangelists" into Wahdat for a cup of tea with the refuges there.. "refugees from where?" They said... Well after some wonderful hospitality and heart to heart talks... these people head home and quietly but surely begin to change the opinions of their church and nation. I think the longterm impact of foreign Christians in Jordan on their home land is WAY underestimated... (ps To big-brother@GID.JO I no longer live in Jordan ;o)
-BJ

I met on my way to Amman/Jordan American Indian wh...

2008-02-26T01:47:00.000+11:00

I met on my way to Amman/Jordan American Indian who told me I am coming to Jordan to preach for Christianity - I was horrified by his statement - we do not need preachers - we need real help in field of education - what about defending Indian rights in America?

Kinzi, I'll read Dr.Imad response in length and wa...

2008-02-25T18:48:00.000+11:00

Kinzi, I'll read Dr.Imad response in length and watch what's gonna happen in the near future. Keep me updated please.

KActuz, I'm not Muslim. Also the Jordanian government did not expell people for their religion, it would be nice if you read what I wrote before you commented on it.

Khalid Jarrar, it would be impossible to always question the motives of people who convert. Add to that is that mnay people change their faiths without changing their documents. I think people should be free to choose their own faiths.

Hareega,its a long debate you started here it seem...

2008-02-25T09:06:00.000+11:00

Hareega,

its a long debate you started here it seems!

the truth is that, i have been very upset about all this issue and knew about it couple of months before it started to leak to the media. To be exact, there are certain charity organizations, that opened churches, in to put things in the most simple way, they lure Iraqi families to come to the service, Iraqi Muslim women and children included, and after reading passages from the bible and letting them sing some chants, they THEN give them some food rations, or whatever aid they got, no point before that, only after they participate in that service. now talk to them and they would tell you: we don't make anyone come, people are here for the love of Jesus, talk to the Muslim Iraqis there, they would tell you: we are only doing it for the aid we get, we are poor and nobody is helping us, we don't have residency and we are not allowed to work, etc etc.

are you missionaries, you ask them, they tell you no we are only aid workers that are here to help poor people, and then one of my Ameircan firneds took one of them aside, and the guy told me friend, straight ahead, bluntly, that they are missionaries.

An iraqi family already converted ot christianity, only to get an instant visa and leave to the states, if you want to wait for the UNHCR to get you the asylem, its taking years now, you do that little thing of telling missionaries that you converted, and your family gets a visa and lots of help in the states too even when they arrive, churches take good care of them, you can imagine how that story can be used just right to gain compassion, oh and dont forget that they will tell the chirch that now that we converted, crazy muslims will kill us, you have to take us to the US right now!

I don't know about you Hareega, but i think that its not only immoral to make people blackmail people to come to religious ceremonies only to get aids, its immoral of both sides of course, both the givers and the takers, but also its pointless, you know that if you have someone covert because you give them stuff..then they don't really believe in what you preach and they are not real followers..who need more hypocrite religion followers? God knows we have enough in every religion in the world already!

And even much worse: As you mentioned, many of these organizations have suspicious elations with Israel, and similar missionary tactics have been used before in many parts of the world as an arm of foreign intervention, political or military foreign intervention in countries. Not to mention how much social stress the actions of these charity organization puts on the society, and the anger they inflame against Christians in general, unfortunately, could effect even Jordanian Christians, that as you said, are and have always been citizens of this country, with equal citizenship rights, very well represented in the parliament beyond their actual percentage of the population, and enjoy completely free freedom in practicing their religious beliefs, and it just upsets me a lot how some idiots in the west come here and in my blog and other places complaining about how Christians are oppressed in the ME. and It's very important for patriot Christians like yourself to speak out what they think because if you don't then who knows how much time will pass before we have some American folks in our backyard with tanks and bombs to free the oppressed Christians in Jordan from the oppression of the blood thirsty Jordanian Muslims?

Sorry for the lengthly comment.

And you are a doctor?And a typical Muslim. That ...

2008-02-25T04:43:00.000+11:00

And you are a doctor?

And a typical Muslim. That means that you do not live by the standards that you demand from others. The way that Muslims treat minority religions, women, gays and even certain sects of Islam is a disgrace. No, it is immoral.

... But it never bothers Muslims.
They dont care. The hate and violence in the Quran obviously doesn't bother them either.

Notice how this 'enlightened' Muslim, a doctor no less, so easily backs expelling people for their religion. This is what Islam is all about: oppression, discrimination and violence.

Hareega, it IS illegal to convert out of Islam in many (most?) Muslim societies. Have you not heard of the apostasy laws? Yes, Jordan is one of the more 'tolerant' countries but it still persecutes non-Muslims. And please tell me why you have one set of standards for the US and another for Muslim countries. We have a word for that.

Yes, it is Muslims who are persecuting people -- with the help of their governments. They do it because it is part of their religion. Of course, Muslims must always blame others for their problems.

Here are a few links for you to check:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,457002,00.html

http://asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=7607

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20977254-2702,00.html

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/Navariednews.asp?dismode=article&artid=1135126315

http://economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10337900

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1572075636

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/mark-steyn-jihad-1797347-exposs-column

One last question: Have any of you actually read the ahadith? A reading of the life and actions of MOhammad will explain everything. Muslims today are just doing what their dear prophet did.

Kactuz

Hareega, its my first visit to your blog, and now ...

2008-02-25T04:03:00.000+11:00

Hareega, its my first visit to your blog, and now that i read your blog, particularly also after knowing that you are chrisitan -you mentioned that in the post- i say that right now you are my hero, everybody else is irrelevant.

It brightens my day when i see such political consciousness and such patriotism.

tommy, In the Arab world, if any Chrisitian conver...

2008-02-24T14:59:00.000+11:00

tommy,
In the Arab world, if any Chrisitian converted to Islam his/her family members will defnintely be disappointed, and they might even chase them and threaten them, however it is not illegal and the authorities will not chase that person and force them to convert back.

Your accusation that Chrisitans in the Middle East do not care much about Chrisitanity as much as other Chrisitians is absurd. The reason "the percentage" of Arab Chrisitians has dropped is the fertility rates among Chrisitians were not nealry as high Muslims. Secondly the majority of Arabs living in Latin America and the US were Chrisitians of as early as the beginnings of the 10th century, and that made it much easier for Chrisitians rather than Muslims to immigrate).
The majority of Chrisitans in Jordan,Syria,Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and Iraq identify themselves as Chrisitians and they practise their religion, at a percentage much higher than Chrisitians in North America or Europe.

Finally you can't compare the US to Jordan. The history is so much different. There is separation between church and state in the US, but that's not true about Jordan.

Ana 7abbait kteer kel elli katabto. Yeslam rasak o...

2008-02-23T21:26:00.000+11:00

Ana 7abbait kteer kel elli katabto. Yeslam rasak ou edaik 3ala kel kilmeh :)

OK, one last point before you tire of me commentin...

2008-02-23T18:25:00.000+11:00

OK, one last point before you tire of me commenting. I hope you will read Dr. Imad's response.

In terms of changing the hearts of American Evangelical "Zionists" Dr. Imad is one of the main players. He visits some of the biggest and most powerful theological institutions and churches (even the White House) in the US portraying Palestinians as many are: educated, peace-loving. He does it in a gentle and winsome way, which wins the hearts of many who have their minds full of bombs, terrorism and the like.

One of the visiting professors to JETS is Dr. Tony Maalouf, author of "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel". The premise of his book is finding and valuing 'Arabness' in the Hebrew scriptures, which takes the wind out of the sails of many 'Zionists'. Dr. Tony is influencing the next generation of pastors in the US.

In attacking JETS this way, the church board is trying to cut off one of the most valuable, influential Arab/Palestinian peace-making voices there are.

Regarding the role of Missionaries, I respect the ...

2008-02-23T18:08:00.000+11:00

Regarding the role of Missionaries, I respect the intent of many of them to help the poor and to do their best in trying to spread the word. I even oppose a part of the Jordanian law that makes it impossible for anyone to convert to Chrisitianity. Having said that, if the Jordanian government did really expell some evangelical missionaries outside Jordan, I'm a 100% supporter of that.

Missionaries aside, it sounds like Christians in Jordan are at a distinct disadvantage in the marketplace of religious ideas. Can Jordanian Christians proselytize? It sounds like they cannot. Can Jordanian Muslims proselytize? I've never heard of any prosecutions for this and it is hard to believe it doesn't occur. The excuse that because Muslims condemn conversion makes this double-standard acceptable is absurd. After all, no true Christian could support someone abandoning Christianity as a moral decision any more than a Muslim could someone abandoning Islam.

Maybe the reason Christians in the developed world come across as superior is because they are actually enthusiastic about their faith, believe it is the truth, and want to share it with others. Evangelicals in the United States often hold a quite positive opinion of Christians in sub-Saharan Africa in spite of the fact that sub-Saharan Africa is even more underdeveloped than the Mideast. That is probably because those African Christians are energetic about their faith. They also hold an admiring view of Christians in Asian countries like China and South Korea. By contrast, most Mideastern Christians, especially those outside Egypt, seem resigned to being an ever-diminishing "dhimmi" population more interested in staying out of trouble with not-always-tolerant Muslims than in spreading the truth of their religion. It's Mideastern Christians that often seem most averse to persecution in the name of their faith.

Christians in the Mideast can strut about acting superior because, after all, they live closer to where Jesus was born, but the simple truth is that Mideastern Christians, unlike Western, African, or Far Eastern Christians, have done a relatively poor job at spreading or even merely maintaining the faith in those lands that are the very cradle of Christianity. Look at the transformation of Nazareth from an overwhelmingly Christian to a mostly Muslim city over the past few decades if you want a case in point.

Finally, this idea of yours that because some members of the community hold certain political views (like opinion on Israel) condemns all members of that community, and your intolerance for a person's freedom to hold such views, is typical of Arabs who demonstrate, time and again, they don't really understand or support freedom of speech or thought. In any event, I hope I won't hear any further complaints from Hareega about the way westerners unnecessarily lump all Arabs or Muslims in the same basket just because a minority (or a majority) of Arabs or Muslims in some country believe in something or act a certain way. ;-)

Im a full supporter of religious freedom and I eve...

2008-02-23T07:08:00.000+11:00

Im a full supporter of religious freedom and I everyone should have the right to choose their own religion or no religion if they wish however:
1) I have met some evangelists in Jordan and later on found out more about their group which is simply some form of fundamentalist Christian Zionism totally focused on crap like 'returning' Jerusalem to the Jews who are its rightful owners etc... This is not simply an issue of faith, this is a coordinate effort to create political influence under the guise of humanitarian work. Obviously this is only one group out of many, and i'm sure that there is a majority of very caring Christian charity organisations working in the country who should be protected and encouraged. But it is important to ensure that these groups do not try to mix religion with politics because this has never been an issue in Jordan and once it is done then pandora's will be open and will create a threat to all of us.

2) These people entered the country on the basis that they will be engaged with charity work etc.. and not proselytising. So in a sense they are breaking the law and should be deported because they are essentially foreigners who are doing something in the country other than that which they had been given permission to do.

Hi Hareega,I disagree with you. Here are my commen...

2008-02-23T06:45:00.000+11:00

Hi Hareega,
I disagree with you.
Here are my comments on the whole controversy

http://www.mentalmayhem.net/mental_mayhem/2008/02/saddened-by-jor.html

3ammania, I did not mix religion with politics, I...

2008-02-23T03:05:00.000+11:00

3ammania, I did not mix religion with politics, I'm actually against mixing them together because it harms both politics and religion to do so. It's not me who did, it's a lot of these organizations.
As I said in the post, I also support the right for anyone to convert from one religion to another and I'm opposed to the Jordanian law in that matter. However having groups that donate millions of dollars to support Israel and that characterize Arabs as monsters should not be welcomed. I feel sorry for the sad personal stories of many people who were expelled, and I know that the majority of them had good intentions, but I think our government was right in sending a message to missionaries that our region is volatile and their activitiesa re not welcomed.

Kinzi, I really do feel sorry for your friends. I know that most of those expelled had good intentions and their aim was not to "destabilize" the community of the region, but there's a very big question mark about evanglism in the region. Even if these individulas who were expelled were not supporters of Israel, their main organization or "faith" is.

Hareega, I've been looking for a response from a J...

2008-02-23T03:04:00.000+11:00

Hareega, I've been looking for a response from a Jordanian evangelical. This is from Dr. Imad Shehadi, Founder and President of the Jordan Evangelical Theological Seminary.

http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=873

Well to tell the truth I find you Hareega a bit co...

2008-02-22T22:18:00.000+11:00

Well to tell the truth I find you Hareega a bit contradicting and mixing, not your mistake, but the mistake of the others who mix politics and religion. I am not against any converting, even if it is to the religion that worships the cows… Muslims, Christians and Jews should start seeing that they are not alone in this world, and definitely not the best.

I am totally against expelling those people because everyone should know better what religion they would like to have. If this sector supports the right wing republicans then its not our problem, who says that your politician views are the best? I am saying that even when I hate the right wing republicans, (I can be rather an “evil communist”), doesn’t matter, I simply know there are other views in this life. (Even though I know that you are talking from a nice Arabic point of view, which I respect)

I agree with anyone who promotes for any religion, his own religion, I don’t care. The problem and the only problem is that some Muslims in Jordan and surrounding areas have just “got used” to be Muslims, so many of them take religion as a name written on the ID, not more. Those ones are easy to convert. But what the hell, let them convert… anyone who is not convinced with what he/she has can convert. I am also against any law any where that says people can not convert.

Anon,Whats your point? Are you claiming that they ...

2008-02-22T06:36:00.000+11:00

Anon,
Whats your point? Are you claiming that they are being expats to experience democracy?
If so then get ready to hear this:
Half a million of those are in saudi arabia and UAE, where democracy and freedom of speech is the farthest term.So basically it is for economical purposes, not persecution outcomes..

Of course if you have dual citiziship thats another issue, right?

I agree that we live a fake democracy, or not even close to fake, but lets not mix issues here..

Kinzi,
I totally understand your frustration and theirs.You make good points. And I am sure you understood what I meant..

Thanks

Whew, Mohanned, I didn't realize you were being ge...

2008-02-22T05:45:00.000+11:00

Whew, Mohanned, I didn't realize you were being general. I am SO relieved (probably so hormonal, too)and glad that I still have my honorary JO citizenship intact. :)

I agree that pressure is a better word than persecuted. But then there is also stuff happening that wasn't in the article.

I also agree that it will make security a much bigger job. Which may be the real reasons for deportations...those folks have other battles to fight and dont' need loose canon foreigners around flying under the radar. But it would be sad if the legitimate foreigners are thrown out with them, like our friends were and all the Egyptian pastors married to Jordanians.

"There are more than one million jordanians abroad...

2008-02-22T05:20:00.000+11:00

"There are more than one million jordanians abroad, are they all being persecuted?"

Of course not. They all live in a free democracy where wealth is distributed fairly and everyone is equal before the law.

Again sorry for the Damned typos:D

2008-02-22T03:24:00.000+11:00

Again sorry for the Damned typos:D

Wooo kinzi, the first part of my reply was intende...

2008-02-22T03:22:00.000+11:00

Wooo kinzi, the first part of my reply was intended to you. I know and you know that your are neither ignorant nor naive and i hold so much respect for you and what you do..If you recall,I gave myself the right to grant you jordanian citizenship with all what comes with it good or bad ;)

Now,when I said naive and ingnorant I was refering to anyone who ignores the security factor in such an issue..

Additionally, I am sure I read somewhere in the near past that somepeople are using money to buy other "convert" other people, especially in rural areas and between bedouins because they represent the most vulnerable part of the society, wether it is true or not is not my concern, I simply showed my disgust with such behavior. And I made it clear that I am not against people spreding their relegion wether it is christianity or islam, but you can't expect that some people will get in the defensive mode, just like here in the US when they fear the increasing number of both muslim immigrants and converts, so you can't blame others..

As for your friends being afraid, it doesn't mean that they are being persecuted. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable here in the US, and sometimes I fear for my wife and daughter because my wife is vieled(By choice)..All of that does't mean that I am being persecuted by the Us government, It simply represent a state of mind that is caused by many factors one of which myabe the stories of deportation..

I know I am complicating the issue a little bit, but it is complex by nature, and I am sure that the government of jordan can't afford providing security to each and every "foreigner", especially if their goal became obvious and they put themselves and the security of jordan at risk; it only takes one incident to ruin a whole year of tourism income, right? And when that happens, thousands of already poor jordanians will get poorer and more desperate..

I hope I made my point clear, and again you know how much I respect you kinzi and sorry if I offended you in anyway..

Mohanned, sometimes I wonder if I offended you at ...

2008-02-22T01:57:00.000+11:00

Mohanned, sometimes I wonder if I offended you at some point. We used to seem to have an understanding, it seems gone now. That saddens me. Whatever I have done, I hope you will tell me so I can apologize and learn.

I brought up the immigration point because it is something that can be counted, not 'subjective' as Mab3oos rightly pointed out. Feeling 'pressure' (which is a better word) is not an indication of Jordanian pride, Jordanians I know in the US are likewise patriotic. I'm sorry if I inadvertantly gave this a slant having to do with patriotism.

You may call it simplification, I'm just telling you what I have heard, most recently at a birthday party last week. Evangelical Jordanians are afraid.

I'm sorry you feel I am naive and ignorant. I'm sure it had something to do with security, but the letter from the JCC has certainly made it one, and a greater likelihood that violence would be done.

I personally don't know anyone who does what you speak of, and disagree with such methods as you do. The article in the JP referred to people giving money and and mentioned foreign brides...sounds more like Mormons to me. :)

I hope, Mohanned, we could go back to the ways things were. You were one of my fav commenters. I am sorry if I grieved you in anyway.

"I would use the rate of Christian immigration fro...

2008-02-22T00:57:00.000+11:00

"I would use the rate of Christian immigration from Jordan to the West as an indicator of 'persecution'."

Well, what about fear of the surrounding wars? Or maybe looking for better jobs?

This is an oversimplification and a false representation of what is really happening..You can't assume that someone migrated because he/she is persecuted..There are more than one million jordanians abroad, are they all being persecuted?

In chicago here, we have a large jordanian christian community, and you simply can't find jordanians more proud than them..I have many many many christian jordanian friends that I consider brothers, well what about them?

But, let me make this clear, I am with keeping the field open, if they want to convert muslims to christianity let it be, if your belief system is not strong enough so that you can stay on one relegion then we are better off without you..But using people's poverty as a door to "sell" relegion is just disgusting! And are they stupid enough to believe someone who bought relegion for money?

Final thing, Kinzi, what if one of your friends got shot or kidnapped because of his/her obvious evangalism? We all know the media cry that will follow!So if they are stupid and made their actions so obvious in a hostile territory, what would you expect? I think the issue was a security one..And if you simply ignore that aspect then your naive and ignorant..

*Sorry for the typos in advance:D

LOL BamBam! I just saw Nas' comment section, and y...

2008-02-21T23:37:00.000+11:00

LOL BamBam! I just saw Nas' comment section, and you are RIGHT! So, who's slacking? :)

Mab3oos, I have heard this a lot from Jordanian Christians of Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant 'sects', especially in the last year. It is said quietly, under the breath, and certainly not in the presence of anyone not of their faith.

I think your personal method of communication (shoot first, ask questions later) doesn't lend itself to people being open about this very sensitive subject. :) I know you hate it, but DO try 'nice'.

I would use the rate of Christian immigration from Jordan to the West as an indicator of 'persecution'.

Hmm... for me, just like kinzi said (wow thats the...

2008-02-21T22:07:00.000+11:00

Hmm... for me, just like kinzi said (wow thats the third time we agreed today... eerie :P), Its more so the christians major sects calling in favors rather than the gov't caring too much about prosyletisation.
Evangelicals take pride in that part especially and thats why you heard an outcry.

@maha
we had those sects for a while now (as long as i can remember i've bumped into them), and usually JW and LDS do it more quietly than others but they do all do it non the less to some extent. especially within the christian community itself.